WARNING: Mockers in the Last Days

105 Responses

  1. Mary E. says:

    John, This post is so powerful, that I have read it through three times. I believe it is Holy Spirit inspired, a wake up call to every believer in this country. We, in this country, have been blessed to worship God with very little persecution, in comparison to those in other countries. With the looming decisions regarding SSM and the health care law, by SCOTUS, the now constant, corrupt dealings by politicians and worst of all, the lack of concern by the people, in general, it is almost a fore gone conclusion that judgment is coming. I see this post as a word from the Lord, to prepare ourselves for what is about to unfold. When judgment comes, the Mockers will be unleashed in droves, embolden by the laws of the land. We, the Saints, must prepare for these times and stand ready to give a word, in and out of season, ready to show the love of Jesus to all.

  2. Dave says:

    So I’m not sure there is much point in continuing this discussion…. But let me give one last ditch effort here, I’ll try to keep it terse and just address you John, but as I stated above, a few comments you have made do not come off as having an “innocent” conversation, hence my sarcasm.

    So you’ve asked your question about rape, to which I replied earlier. Did you not see my answer? Or do you think it doesn’t actually answer the question? Evolution of empathy in humans basically is what gives me the ability to label rape as “wrong”. Again see my response to the bible and please let me know how you find a position of moral superiority in that book when Yahweh advocates such atrocities. And even punishes those for not carrying them out completely.

    John, you continue to assert, “I showed you proof based on the current existence of Israel and Jerusalem.”. You have then alluded to providing verses that are up to interpretation. Now obviously that’s what you got out of it. But unfortunately prophecy throughout history has been VERY vague and can be used to defend the readers perspective (see Nostradamus). Even if you had a document that shows in the year 10 CE, someone said on September 11th 2001, terrorists will fly airplanes into what will then be known as the twin towers, the only thing we can infer is that we don’t know how they came up with their information. God, as I believe you think he exists correct me if I’m wrong here (see how I ask for your perspective and don’t just tell you what yours is? I also don’t demean your understanding of the bible, “obviously you know nothing about the bible”). Let’s pretend for a moment we found such a document, and this document just happens to be from a Hindu source. Do you automatically give up your beliefs or do you question the source? (Was it tampered with? Altered? Does it really say what people think it says, or did someone interpret it correctly?) See this is where, my guess is, you’d have a double standard. Because from other cultures and religions, we do have claims of prophecy from antiquity and, correct me if I’m wrong, but you throw those out.

    See what is important to me is finding out what in this life is true, whether I like it or not. Atheism was not something I fell into overnight. Nor did I ” rely on my parents faith “. I did what is so incredibly hard for us as humans to do. Took a step back and asked the question, ” is this real? “. Do you know how hard it was for me? I’m guessing not.

    How do you go about determining what’s real?

    How important is scientific consensus to you? Do you allude to conspiracy such as above now with biblical scholars? Do you apply the same doubts to medicine (which is furthered by evolutionary study and the same type of consensus/peer review, albeit I’d claim much more rigorously)

    When the beginnings of your book (specifically the new testament) have also been used by the Gnostics, Marcionism, etc have radically different beliefs, views on god or add additional gods, how do you make sense of it all? This one’s particularly fascinating as we’re talking about using the same books you give authority to.

    Lastly, if you decide this is a waste of your time, no worries. As a secular humanist, I do truly wish you all the best in life as I can recognize we are all similar and we only get one shot at this. Make the best of it!

    • JohnMcTernan says:

      I said you know nothing about the Bible because you said using it to defend the Bible was circular reasoning. Someone who knew the Bible would not say that.
      Your attack is directly against the authority of the Bible as being the word of God.
      It is amazing how you brush off the rebirth of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital, as if it does not matter.
      This is an issue you have to face as it is not going away. This is going t get worse all the way to Armageddon.
      Because I know the Bible, I know where all this is heading.
      Because you reject the authority of the Bible you are clueless.
      The Bible records the everstasting covenant the Holy God of Israel made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Jews over the land of Israel.
      The Jews are back according to this covenant.
      The proof is very simple and it cuts right through all your mental gymnastics attacking the authority of the Bible.
      Get on an airplane and fly to Israel. Then go to Jerusalem and listen to the Jews speak Hebrew.
      Since you claim to know the Bible, then you know the prophecies. This is really all the proof that you need.
      It is visible and tangible.
      We know from the Bible what is to follow and that is WW3 followed by Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
      In your future there will be no atheists.
      The antichrist will demand worship or death. Since you deny Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, then you will have to face the antichrist.
      Just as Israel was reborn with Jerusalem as the capital, so the antichrist is on the way.
      Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
      Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

      I think that these verse are prefect for our discourse:
      Jeremiah 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
      Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
      Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

      Somehow I missed your response to ISIS raping and selling woman, also and no one commented on it.
      Please take time once again to respond to this, as it is very critical to your faith.

  3. Norman, Shropshire, UK says:

    Dave’s situation should be an object lesson to all of us. He raised some very significant points which were not fully dealt with, and indeed, only the Holy Spirit can help him on some of them. Sounds to me he’s had an overdose of religion, and desperately needs to meet the Crucified One. I don’t necessarily mean a Damascus Road experience, but an encounter with a Stephen, whose death-in-Christ Paul witnessed. In the days ahead, it will not be ‘What you know, but ‘Who you know’ – and what do any of us know, apart from Him (1 Corinthians, Chs. 1-2. I would love to have Dave as a work-mate – in sharing the reason for the hope that is within us, we should never forget the ‘fear and trembling’ bit! May the Lord meet him in Person. Amen

  4. Denise in MI says:

    Danielle, I recently googled for the Joel verses re: the outpouring of the HS, and a Catholic reading that came up was Joel 3:1-5, when in actuality, in the KJV, it is Joel 2: 28-32. So the RCC has verses that don’t line up with the KJV. Things added to and subtracted from the Word. Scary.

    I read Dr. David Reagan’s (of Christ in Prophecy) site, lamblion.com and the blog
    had a series of interviews Nathan Jones just did @http://www.lamblion.us/ with Mike Gendron, a former Catholic.(scroll down) It was really good. Lots about the current pope.
    Gendron’s site is: http://proclaimingthegospel.org

    He has a link there to a site with the testimony and writings of a former priest, Richard Bennett: http://www.bereanbeacon.org/en/

    I was all over that site, going to several of the links Bennett had. Now to get my loved ones to find and accept the Truth. I pray that they are truly saved by the blood of Jesus, that He would know their hearts of love for Him, and be included in His Kingdom.I pray He won’t say He never knew them b/c they were led astray. He will judge the (false) teachers more harshly. In accepting the FINISHED work of the Cross, we already have an A+. We don’t need “extra credit.”

    Re: our ongoing discussion w/ Dave, perhaps someone could lead him to the writings of former atheists, such as C.S. Lewis. (I don’t have anything off the top of my head.) Just as Danielle and I understand where the other is coming from, this might help him. Still praying for you, Dave. It will be such a relief when you let go of this burden you’re carrying and give it to Jesus. Love to all, Denise

  5. Joni says:

    Tom, we love hearing your point of view.
    You always hit the nail squarely on the head.
    I love reading your posts.
    On the other hand, I applaud Robin.
    I would NOT want to be your wife in an argument with you, amen everyone?
    You know we love you…….
    God Bless us all,
    Joni

  6. Joni says:

    We love Robin too……
    Joni

  7. Dave says:

    John, if the bible has been used to justify multiple contradictory beliefs (again Gnostics, Marcionism, docetism,etc.), even in antiquity, we don’t have original manuscripts for the books, and those copies we do have errors, have certain passages where others do not, then we MUST start from a position of questioning. You do not get to start with the bible being an authority until you have proven it actually is so. Again, prophecies are not exclusive to Christianity, nor solely rely on the bible, again we compare and contrast the work to see where the evidence leads (see my point above about best methods for determining what’s real). Using “faith” to determine reality has been proven not to work as this is the method Muslims take and obviously no one is questioning their determination when they’re willing to give up their lives for what they believe in. You also have a problem with the multitude of contradictions in the bible. Typical apologetics that I’ve seen seems to try and make the arguments that some parts are just imagery while others speak to reality. Again, this appears to myself as well as a greasy many scholars from what I can tell, as cherry picking. Perfect example of this, Matthew 24:34, “…this generation will not pass until these things will be fulfilled”. Now we can take this literally and say, Jesus got it wrong, which I’m inclined to think you don’t believe, or you can begin the apologetics of suggesting he didn’t literally mean what the book said he did.

    Ultimately, no matter if you have some truths or worthwhile information in the bible, the fallacy is to assume that everything contained in the book is therefore valid and true. It’s not.

    Even if for the sake of argument, I go along and pretend that the book is correct in the prophecies (again I don’t believe this), you’re still doing nothing more than saying the book was able to predict whatever you think it did. Causation is still not given to show that behind it lies an all powerful, all knowing deity.

    Have you watched any debates with William Lane Craig? While the man does use logic to a decent extent and generally accepts science (except in the case where he gets it wrong and tries to use it to justify his position, see Craig vs Carroll), he’s still presupposing evidence in most of his arguments.

    What I ask for is evidence for god, not ” this book makes these claims “, however valid they may be (in the case of the bible I do not see them being valid at all). And using the exact methods your bible suggests, WHOLEHEARTEDLY, did not result in the conclusion it indicates I should come to. Nor has it done the same for countless others.

    The mortality issue is again easily resolved through science as I’ve mentioned above. Empathy first and foremost gives me the ability to understand others suffer. Psychology tells us that there is damage to to the woman being raped. I can conclude, I don’t want to be in a society that allows suffering and conclude it is wrong. Again, if you’re going to rely on the bible, you must answer for its morality. Slavery is condoned (and please don’t go the indentured servant route, that’s a joke of an explanation, as you can’t, “.. Strike his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand he will be punished. If however he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken for he is his property.” Exodus 21:20-21. Again, 1 Samuel 15:2-33 “…put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” Children and animals? I mean, how do you justify that? The fact that Saul doesn’t kill all the animals and is punished BY Yahweh because of it, speaks to HIS commanding it. While rape is disgusting, murdering children is a little worse on my list. The flood myth (again surprisingly not supported by geologists) is worse for your case as there is no human involvement. Your deity directly murders man, woman, child and animal. I fail to see how anyone can claim to have any decent set of morals by thinking the bible is literally true.

    Again I’ll ask, how do you determine what is true? Where do you come up with your data for the authors of the bible and the age of the manuscripts from which they came?

    • JohnMcTernan says:

      You dropped the circular reasoning attack on the Bible and now off on another direction.
      So what if there were cultists 2000 years ago. It is the same today with groups like Mormons, but that does not alter the truth of the Bible.
      They believe in lies and this is very common like with atheism and evolution. Man has a tendencies towards lies and away from the truth.

      There are between 8-10,000 documents and fragments about the Bible. The clear picture of what was the real writings are very clear.
      Do you really expect originals from 1900 years ago! How about 3500 years ago?
      Just like you attack the Bible from the outside, there are tares on the inside that attack it. This is how we end up with the NIV and other translations.

      Once again you deflect the questions about ISIS raping women. There is some incoherent information about empathy and psychology which had nothing to do with the question.
      This question is about right and wrong.
      Please answer this head on, please. Is it wrong for ISIS to rape and sell women as sex slaves. Is there ever a time, when it is permissible to rape a woman.
      We know that rapes happen all the time and conquering armies routinely do it. So is it ever OK to rape.
      This is a very simple question. I made the question very simple.

      I want to answer Matthew 24:34 separately as it is a favorite of the scoffers and mockers.

      Once again you are face to face with Israel as a nation, Jerusalem its capital and the Jews speak Hebrew.
      This is the direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy from 2000-3500 years ago.
      You have a big problem, because now you face the coming of the antichrist, Armageddon and the awesome Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
      I really do feel that this is a good verse for you. Hear the word of the LORD
      Jer 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
      Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
      Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

  8. Denise in MI says:

    Dave, You sound ready to leave us. I asked you to set aside your argument for at least a short time and give the Lord time to work in you. You are instead white-knuckled, holding onto it. My heart has been heavy thinking about you, so I googled for prayers for loved ones who are atheists. Here are excerpts from one article (lots out there) from a man who lived in Berkeley:

    http://www.creationism.org/articles/AtheistFriends.htm

    “I would say firstly to begin witnessing to them with prayer and love. The atheists like to see themselves as “smart” in dispensing with the old superstitions and religions of the past. One needs to appeal to their intellect while praying for their souls.”

    ***A little knowledge (of the wrong kind) is a dangerous thing….

    “They are smart humans, but with deceived souls. Even a smart person can be deceived, in fact it is pride (not intelligence) that can be the main problem. Pride goes before a fall (Proverbs 16:18). They’ve mentally dispensed with notion of the Bible as revealed truth.”

    ***You are now so angry with John, I don’t know if you see the pride in your argument. You will leave us rather than back down and see any of the truth he is trying to tell you. Anger comes from pride too. Let it go. Just take a deep breath and let it go, and let the breath of the Holy Spirit convict you.

    The author also recommended C.S. Lewis’ “Mere Christianity.” There are other atheists-turned-believers out there. I’m sure you can google it. Think about it, why would they leave their atheism if it was “right?”

    Here is a specific prayer I said for you from the following site:

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/prayer-for-unsaved-loved-ones/

    Binding prayer (2 Corinthians 4:3,4):

    “Right now I bind the god of this world (Satan) who has blinded their eyes to the truth of the gospel, and I loose the light of the gospel to shine on them and open their eyes. You, spirit, operating in the life of my loved one, blinding DAVE to the gospel to keep DAVE out of the kingdom of God, I bind you now. I belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. I carry His authority and righteousness and in His Name, I command you to desist in your maneuvers. I spoil your house according to the Word of God and I enter into it to deliver my loved one from your hands.”

    ***This is the longest thread I’ve ever seen on John’s site, and some of the longest comments most of us have made. I hope you see how concerned we are for you.
    Please don’t give up on your search for Jesus. Search your heart. Consider what you are giving up and what you’ll have to face if you harden it. People have died in the name of Christ, when it would’ve been easier to deny Him. (All the apostles but John were martyrs, and they tried to boil him in oil.) In the ME they’d rather be beheaded than deny Him. Does that mean nothing to you? You’ll never convince anyone here to join your “side,” and a stalemate would be a real (eternal) shame. Why not go back and find the real reason you tossed Jesus aside? He can get you back on the right path. I feel in my spirit that deep down you want this and are trying to find something tangible to convince you, but you have to take it on faith that the bible is true.

  9. JohnMcTernan says:

    Dave used Matthew 24:34 as “proof” of error in the Bible.
    This verse is a main “pet” of those that attack the Bible.
    I did a teaching to show that it is about the generation that will see the Lord Jesus coming in great glory, and that the generation that He was speaking to.
    “This Generation” https://defendproclaimthefaith.org/blog/?p=3505
    (See Previous)
    When studying the gospels, there are many times that the Lord uses a parable about the fig tree. They are usually about bearing fruit, which Israel was not, and the subsequent destruction of the tree for being fruitless. In Matthew 24:32, Jesus Christ is talking about the fig tree coming to life and getting ready to bear fruit and not its destruction. The context of Matthew 24:34 is the generation that sees the events coming to pass regarding the end of the age and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. THIS generation shall not pass until all the events are fulfilled. Let’s look at the entire section in context to see that the generation in focus is the one that is living during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, and it is not the generation that sees the destruction of the temple. These are two separate events.

    Matthew 24:29,30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    (32) Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. (34) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    (Continued)

  10. Danielle says:

    Thank you, Denise, for your research and comments here … I read the complete testimony of the former Catholic priest, Richard Bennett. Wow .. amazed at how we can be lead down the wrong path …the blind leading the blind !! Praise God for 1Peter 2:9 “… He called me out of the darkness and into His marvelous Light!”
    I also wanted to mention to you that Chick Publications is a bold and awesome resource for tracts re: false teachings of the RCC ! ( RCC tried to take them down back in the 80’s but praise God they couldn’t !) Thank God for Mr. Bennett’s testimony and for all he went through to bring God’s Word to others,that they might know the love of Jesus Christ!
    p.s. As for Dave, for what it’s worth, in my prayer for you God spoke 2 words:
    “Read Job” – that’s all He said , so I am passing the message along to you.
    Forever His,
    Danielle

  11. Susan says:

    I am a little surprised no one here has pointed out to Dave yet that he is engaging in what is called a categorical error. He is trying to measure the supernatural (which we all know God’s word is…living and powerful and supernaturally inspired) with natural measuring tools. It’s like trying to weigh a chicken with a yard stick. It doesn’t work. Not to mention he still has the spiritual veil over his eyes that all of us had at one time too. Pray for the veil to be lifted and for this man to be broken of his pride and self-sufficiency.

  12. Norman, UK says:

    Dave, by way of a PS (if you’re still there) – in my comment at #68, I did not mean to hurt in any way the memory of your parents, who I’m sure are/were very dear to you. I just know it can be very tough being a pastor, and all fall short in the end There can also be much humbug in Christian circles, which I’m sure could be a great switch-off. However, I believe the Lord’s faithfulness down the generations tends to prevail (‘for the fathers’ sakes’). I’m not a pastor, by the way, except to the farmers, whose cattle I look after as a veterinarian (a bit like Amos) Farming is a labour of love, too, but It’s great to be ‘earthed’ amongst all the perplexities of life. (The animals, in their innocence, help!) Since you are so well read, and have thought so deeply about things, we could have some great discussions, I’m sure. We may not agree, but I would be glad to share with you out of my ‘treasure things new and old’ Mt 13.52.

  13. Denise in MI says:

    You’re very welcome, Danielle. After many years of struggling with the shame & guilt I “inherited,” I am finally secure in my salvation. I now understand that Jesus died for all of my sins and there’s nothing I can do to pay Him back for them but believe and accept what He did for me. When the devil reminds me of past sins, I rebuke him. When I believed the lies, I had depression and anxiety. My life was about the approval of others and never “measuring up.” Now I know that I’ve been “preapproved” by God. He knew everything about me and all that I would do before I took my first breath and has loved me with an everlasting love. I only needed to accept that unconditional love.

    I am still concerned about my family and am working on them to accept that we are saved by grace and not works, lest anyone should boast. It’s hard to witness to them, as I only see them once a year, but I know the Lord is working in ways I’ll never know. Our “work”, as Christians in any denomination, should not be in doing things for our own (supposed) merit, but should lead others into the Kingdom.

    What’s amazing to me is how God has used all my low times for good, though I didn’t see it while in the center of the storm. Going through hard times increases our compassion for others. Someone who has “been there” has a perspective that can help another wounded lamb and hopefully steer them toward Jesus. I understand Dave’s struggle to let go of preconceived notions, because I once had them in the RCC.

    I completely get your reference to Job. His wife and “friends” wanted him to curse God because nothing was going his way. When he held fast to his faith, the Lord restored everything to him, in a double portion. Just think what He can do in Dave’s life if he would only surrender. He could lead other atheists to the Lord, who might otherwise perish. That’s my hope, anyway.

    Blessings!

  14. Barbara in VA says:

    Susan–you have “nailed” it! There is a scripture which you may have had in mind with your comment!

    1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)

    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Dave, there are many people praying that your eyes will be opened so that we may all meet you at “the table”.

    Maranatha!

  15. Lori says:

    Romans 1:20

    King James Version (KJV)
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

  16. Tom says:

    My original retort pointed out this fallacy prior to my cutting it short due to technical difficulties of writing space limitations. Aethiests and ant-Christians proponents commit this error in argument to deny inalienable natural rights too. Much is wrong in Dave’s methodology, and this is another one of them.

    In His Service,
    Tom

  17. Tom says:

    Thanks,
    The retort, defense, and ending rejoinder was point on point. After nearly 30 years of marriage there has hardly ever been an argument or disagreement.

    In His Service,
    Tom

  18. Tom says:

    His weak reply was couched deep within his lengthy diatribe; had to search for it. He missed an opportunity to enlighten us on Moral Relativism and Situational Ethics.

    In His Service,
    Tom

  19. Tom says:

    LOL, goes without saying. She hasn’t commented in awhile because there was another Robin who was posting awhile back and she didn’t want to create confusion.

    In His Service,
    Tom

  20. Denise in MI says:

    Tom, re: writing space, I have had the same problem when I’ve written longer posts. The “post comment” button won’t appear. I almost broke my “page down” key a few times. What finally worked was to keep hitting “tab” and the bottom of the page appeared so I could post. Hope this helps.

  21. Denise in MI says:

    I don’t know if Dave has left us, but if he has, I hope some of the sharing here has resonated with him. Even though he has resisted and bordered on rudeness at times, remember the dark spirit that is working through him. I read somewhere that we shouldn’t argue with nonbelievers b/c it is futile, but if we approach with love and pray for them God will move. He doesn’t want any to perish. I’m not playing “Good Cop” here; I only want Dave to come to Jesus. I was so indoctrinated in my church that I resisted anything nonCatholic, so I understand where he became skeptical. The difference in my case is that I never stopped believing in God, only in powerful men. I know God will work in Dave’s life to bring him back, but time is short and it has to be Dave’s choice, so I hope he surrenders to Christ soon.

  22. Barbara in VA says:

    Hi Denise: I had to laugh at “seeing” you hitting that page down key. There is an easier way than hitting the tab key also. Just go to the previous comment (say it is #85) and click on that number–the space you need to post your comment will come up. This was a method someone else posted some time back. It sure has saved me a lot of frustration.

    God bless you, Denise, and all the others who have made wonderful comments on this particular subject. What has been so obvious is the love you have shown toward Dave and the real Christian concern for his salvation. I pray that God will answer all those prayers that Dave will open his eyes, his heart, his mind, and his soul and seek God’s truth. It appears to me that his real problem is a terribly broken heart! and we know who came to heal the broken heart. Amen!

    God bless all of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ. Here is a wonderful scripture that is the verse of the day on Bible Gateway:

    Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jah, and rejoice before him. A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
    Psalm 68:4-5 KJV

    Maranatha!

  23. Dave says:

    Denise, I’m not mad. I feel like I’m not able to find any common ground with John so there is some frustration, but no anger on my part, ok? Also, see William Lane Craig’s debates where he consistently uses logic/arguments from CS Lewis (argument from reason). They seem to presuppose evidence to “fit” a god into their reasoning. (Also see Ontological, Cosmological arguments, etc.) They aren’t compelling to me. If we’re to be honest, and don’t have evidence to provide causation, one must take the position of “I don’t know” until cause can be shown.

    John, to me, it is still circular reasoning to validate the bible with the bible. It doesn’t matter how many writers or how old something is. If the baseline information is, in my view, myth, and that myth is believed by others and they are starting with a shared belief, then they will continue to write (to some degree) to the same topic and same claims of “truth”. Continuing to affirm a false belief throughout a good deal of history, still makes the belief false (I assume you agree with me on this when it comes to those of competing religions, such as Hinduism that dates back further than Christianity.) Those later writers are also capable of interjecting or modifying the previous texts in the cases they don’t fully agree with the previous authors (also demonstrated through different manuscripts of which I hope you’re familiar). So again my argument is that the book is not a good source of authority and again I will ask what authority do you use to determine what is a valid “inspired” book? How do you come to the conclusion that the apocrypha isn’t valid and all the books in the canon are? If any books in the canon were being disputed, do you disregard even the slightest possibility that forgeries could have made it into the canon? Do you solely rely on “faith” of the church father’s to make the decision for you as to what is and is not inspired?

    Tom, when you’re going to be arrogant about your claims, you might want to make sure to get it right… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance, see also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof. Again, my position is one of asking for evidence and suspending belief (atheism) due to no evidence being provided. I do not have knowledge (agnosticism) of a god, therefore, AGNOSTIC ATHEIST, as I stated above… I also stated this above too, but seeing as you’ve obviously not understood how the argument’s work, here’s a good analogy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
    I am not above being proven wrong and from my perspective have done exactly that by becoming an atheist, but let’s again try and be halfway decent and make coherent arguments alright?

    • JohnMcTernan says:

      If one uses the Koran to prove the Koran, you could say that this is circular reasoning because one man wrote it over 30 years.
      But your dismissal of the Bible is like saying, if I use 69 books and articles written by 40 authors over 200 years to prove evolution, then this is circular reasoning because
      they are all evolutionists.
      I think for some reason you hold the Bible to a higher standard.
      Most of the New Testament writers were eyewitnesses to the ministry of Jesus Christ. In the case of Luke, he interviewed the first hand accounts.
      All the apostles, expect John, died horrible deaths for their faith in Jesus Christ.
      The explosion of the faith throughout the world shortly after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
      These are all proofs to the authority of the writers of the Bible.
      And yes, at some point faith has to kick in.

      Then we have the tangible proof which is the rebirth of Israel with Jerusalem as its capital.
      You dismiss this, but it is real proof. There is so much Bible prophecy about Jerusalem and the rebirth of Israel.
      I really do not need much faith in this area because it is visible and tangible; however, you need ENORMOUS amounts of unbelief to deny it.
      Just following the logic of man’s bent towards war and violence, and the belief in the coming of Armageddon falls in perfect harmony with the Bible.
      The place of Armageddon is Israel and spilling over into Jerusalem. This is all in harmony because Israel is a nation with Jerusalem as its capital.
      My faith is very logical and easy to believe because it does not take much faith to believe that Israel exists because of God and His everlasting covenant made 4000 years ago.

      Zechariah 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

  24. Dave says:

    John, no it’s not the same thing as evolution and you even comparing the two tells me you’re either ignorant about the process of science (which is OK, I’m not using this as an insult), or you’re being dishonest. Evolution is shown through peer review and EMPIRICAL evidence to be true. It can be observed and doesn’t require faith to accept. If a scientist shows part of the theory to be wrong do you understand the implications on that person’s career? Do you get the position they would be elevated to? When scholarship does this to the bible, you reject it as you’ve stated above. Read Bart Ehrmans book on forgeries. The reasoning can’t be denied as to why there are problems and yet I get the feeling you do nothing more than ignore it without a second thought. Evolution also makes testable predictions that, unlike the bible, have been made PRIOR to the results. Just like you’re Matthew interpretation, now that things didn’t happen the way it was initially read (again see history of the church, yes they did in fact think he would be returning soon), you modify it. It seems to be an unending game of shifting the goal posts. What happens when we test prayer what are the results? Not significant to show positive impact in some studies, others show negresults, I’ll chalk that up to a wash, but that’s not in line with what the bible tells us we should see, is it? You’ve yet again dodged the question about authority of the bible and I don’t know why… And gone on to make additional claims about eye witnesses… Again in regards to dating when the books were written and by who, you go not to the position of scholarship so where do you get this evidence from? How do you know the authors are who you think they are and how do you differentiate them from the apocryphal work, some of which are quoted in your canon and are claimed to be by the same authors?

    If you’re going to keep dodging this as you did with bringing up the morality thing, I think I’m done here. You don’t get to suggest a position of moral superiority, then when called out on such atrocities as commanding murder of babies or committing the actual murder, by your deity, just ignore it or pretend the bible doesn’t have those verses.

    • JohnMcTernan says:

      Dave, I used evolution on purpose because it is a philosophy hiding in science.
      Evolutionists used so many lies to promote it, like the Java man, Pithdown man, and Peking man, not to mention the “Hope-full monsters.”
      Evolutionists have whitewashed all this, but I am old enough to remember all this nonsense being passed off as “science”.
      You believe evolution by faith, and this is why I used it in the example I did.
      Evolution is a philosophy or maybe even a form of religion hiding in science.

      You were unable to say that is is absolutely wrong to rape a woman at anytime and sell women as sex slaves.
      You can’t because you then have to admit there are absolutes which means a higher moral authority.

      As I said before Armageddon is the logical conclusion to man’s sinful nature. The war clouds of it are now forming as I write this.
      The antichrist is the logically conclusion of man rejecting the true and living God and living lies. The antichrist is on the way.
      Your denial of truth in no way can stop what is coming.
      2Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
      2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
      2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
      2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

      I pray that you would repent of rejecting truth and come to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before it is too late.
      You must be watching what is happening in the Middle East and with Russia and China. WW3 is forming to be followed by Armageddon.
      The proof is before eyes.

  25. Lori says:

    Hebrews 11:1King James Version (KJV)

    11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

  26. Norman, UK says:

    Also, Dave – in the interests of truth (as best we mortals may perceive it), variation within kinds, and upon which natural selection may operate, is not proof of evolution. To me, it’s proof of the complexity of the created genome within each kind, a built-in adaptability to meet the changing environment over time (or Providence, you could say).
    Until recently, scientists said that a high proportion of the genome was ‘Junk DNA’ – the left overs of ‘evolutionary history’. This is now discovered to be anything but junk – and is now called the epi-genome, which governs the vastly complex process that govern the switching on and off of enzymes that control all the life processes in each organism (not that any of this should convince one to believe in God, of course – I say this in all humility, as one who was once of that view myself).

    I met a distant relative of Darwin working on a farm a few years ago, who was a Christian. He told me he believed in micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution – quite a wise answer, I thought. Or as another farmer up in the hills said to me, “You’d never get a mouse changing into an ‘orse! (however many billion years you waited!)
    With due respect, and despite the staggering technological progress of recent years, you probably know as well as I do that scientists are as flawed as any in their philosophical extrapolations – sometimes disastrously so.
    Besides all this, it is a great relief to me that God has deliberately ordained that we should NOT come to know him through wisdom and knowledge, nor through observable miracles per se. Yet gloriously, once we do come to know him (by grace, through faith), we become no strangers to either wisdom or miracles – though I’d gladly grant you, they are nowadays, for good reason, mostly of the quieter kind.

  27. Denise in MI says:

    John 20:24-29
    24 But Thomas, one of the twelve,called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
    25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
    26. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou has seen me, thou has believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

  28. Denise in MI says:

    This is not an endorsement for this ministry. In fact, I disagree w/ Pat Robertson on several things, mostly his teaching against a pre-Tribulation Rapture. I don’t usually watch the interactive show, but happened upon it today and thought this video (time: 4:40) relevant to our discussion.

    http://700clubinteractive.cbn.com/atheist-science-teacher-makes-stunning-discovery

  29. Maria says:

    Dave, your trying to get proof that God’s exists through man’s word. That will not happen. Only God can reveal the truth to you. If you are sincere in seeking the Lord, ask Him for the truth, humble yourself, cry out to the Lord, don’t give up no matter how long it takes.

    Mark 9:24 “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

  30. Dave says:

    John, please understand Evolution before discounting it. It in no way is a philosophy and you saying such, implies you don’t have a grasp on what the actual theory is. Here’s a good place to start unless you’re going go allude to conspiracy in education: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php (Norman, you may want to look at this as well. Macro evolution is micro evolution on a larger time scale. Observing one is in fact observing the other…)

    You may also want to understand the support for evolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

    You also understand the Catholic church (where your religion has it’s roots) accepts the theory as well?

    And again, accepting evolution and rejecting a belief in a deity are not mutually exclusive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins (a christian)

    I do understand why you reject it, and I do believe Christianity and evolution are not compatible, however as in Francis Collins case, it can be done.

    I’m not sure I see this being useful to continue this discussion. You still ignore my questioning about authority. You have made the positive claim in the case about the author’s identities and the dates of when they wrote. And yet I when I ask for evidence, since this flies directly in the face of the majority of scholarship, you dodge. You’ve done the same thing in regards to the morality questions and seemingly make a straw man of my argument when I clearly answered that it was absolutely wrong to rape.

    I would again suggest Bart Ehrman’s Book: http://www.amazon.com/Forgery-Counterforgery-Literary-Christian-Polemics/dp/0199928037
    When the bible says the author’s were peasants/fisherman/uneducated and yet they somehow find a way to write (to the level of the highly educated) in a foreign language (Greek), were they actually what the bible states they were? Or did someone else write it? (Look at the history here to see how unlikely this really is).

    Denise, think about it. Thomas, who lived in Jesus time and witnessed the things he did, STILL had his doubts until seeing the “risen Christ”. Why is it that I and everyone else that has taken my same path (including pastors who’ve devoted their lives to “god’s work”), must rely on faith alone? Why don’t I get a personal appearance after seeking “him, with all my heart, my mind and my soul”? Just consider that.

    Again, I wish you all the best, I would just ask that you question before believing something.

    • JohnMcTernan says:

      I think that we have covered all that we can for now.
      I offered you tangible proof of the authority of the Bible as the word of God.
      That proof is centered around the everlasting covenant the Holy God of Israel made 4000 years ago with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants down to today.
      This is the reason why the Jews are so unique and Israel is once again a modern nation.
      According to the Bible, we know the events that are coming such as WW3, the antichirst, Armageddon and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
      I really think that it is time to end this discussion unless you have specific questions about Bible prophecy.
      As these events unfold, I hope that you would turn to Jesus Christ as you Savior.

      Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
      Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
      Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
      Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
      Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

  31. Denise in MI says:

    In Matthew 26:69 and following, Peter denies Jesus 3x, just as Jesus predicted he would do.
    v.75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. and he went out, and wept bitterly.

    The good news in John 21:15 and following, Jesus asks Peter 3x (significant) if Peter loves Him and tells him to feed His sheep. He also showed Peter that he would die a martyr’s death (v.19).

    After the Rapture, people who denied Christ will weep for doing so, but in His mercy, He will give them a final chance to accept Him and will forgive their previous rejection of Him. The downside is that they, too, will be martyrs. Perhaps this is what will happen to Dave… I hope something horrible doesn’t happen, that he could die before getting that chance. I have wept for his denial of my Savior, and I need to let it go.

    Like Maria, I’ve asked him (twice) to set aside his argument and sincerely seek the Lord, having nothing to lose if all is but a “fairy tale.” How sad that he has stubbornly refused to back down in his need to be “right,” at the cost of his soul. I have made my case (as have others) and will cease comment on this topic not to be a quitter but because I feel it has fallen on deaf ears. I will continue to pray for him, that he may be humbled, whatever it takes. Sometimes only the most devastating circumstance will bring someone to their knees, crying out to the Lord, but the alternative is even more terrible.

    Pro 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

  32. Tom says:

    Dave,
    I made no claims what-so-ever; I simply showed to everyone the fallacy of the arguments from a debating perspective–arguments that you yourself presented. Don’t take it personally, but let’s face it, you simply are not good at debating–you’ve committed every text-book error. Above, you accuse me of not knowing how arguments work is an example, an example in error of presumption on your part. Again, don’t take this personally. You have to be able to take the criticism and defend accordingly and without lashing out. If you can’t defend, you can’t convince. I must say that trough all of this, that I admire your tenacity. You have an assertiveness and determination that will serve you well into the future once you gain practice and skill in the fine art of debate and persuasion. I also admire your passion for the topic at hand. This makes me wonder if you are still a Christian at heart and merely troubled from anger in response to some wrong committed against you. It is my hope and desire that the issue is resolved quickly and satisfactory. It is also my hope and desire that you come to see the logic in the Bible, understand it’s precepts and concepts and understand the irrefutable historical accuracy of it.
    In His Service,
    Tom

  33. Norman, UK says:

    THE TWO GREAT BOOKS: “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures, which express His power.” Sir Francis Bacon, 1605

    “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;” Rom 1:28.

    “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:” 1 Tim 1:19; 6:20-21.

    “O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy”.Hab Ch. 3: (speaking of the time of Jacob’s trouble, after the Church has gone??)

    TO DENY THE CREATION, THEREFORE, IS TO DENY CHRIST: See Col 1.12ff

    Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation: Cf Is 49.8; 2 Cor 6:2

    Amen.

  34. Lori says:

    Dave,
    Maybe this will seem childish and simplistic to you but my mom always said :”there are no atheists in the foxholes”. This is another way my simple thoughts see it all: “If your right in there being no God, then none of us has lost anything eternally, but if you’re wrong you have lost everything and will be eternally separated from God, and in hell. I personally wouldn’t want to take that chance. Try walking through a graveyard and think of all who have died throughout the ages. I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist.

  35. MAGDY says:

    RIGHT ON ARTICLE

    AMERICA IS AWAITING THE NEXT STEP